GD: Hello Stephen Kneale, and
welcome to Exiled Preacher. Please tell us a little about yourself.
SK: Hello! My friends call me Steve
(some very close friends and family run with Stevie) I prefer being called
Steve but hate it in conjunction with my surname, hence Stephen Kneale. Err...
anyway that’s my name (hope you’ve made room for this). I was born in Oxford,
began my schooling in Birkenhead, finished my secondary education in W. Berks,
did my undergrad degree in History & Politics 10 years ago at Liverpool,
where I also met my wife Rachel. From there, I took a Religious Studies & Philosophy
PGCE and had a very brief career as a secondary school teacher in
Newbury. After a hefty bout of depression, I left teaching and completed an MA
in Theology (I had intended to do it with the Artist formerly known as WEST,
but their distance programme wasn’t suitable for me at the time). At this
point, we were in Shrewsbury due to my wife’s work. From there, we followed my
wife’s work again to Manchester where I became a self-employed researcher
serving the recruitment sector and serving with a church in Moss Side. From
there, I was called to be the pastor at Oldham Bethel Church around 3 ½ years
ago. Since then, you asked me to do this a few hours ago, marking the zenith of
both my theological development and overall growth as a person.
SK: My blog began as a primarily
political blog with a bit of theological comment thrown in. It has morphed
somewhat since then, moving from Blogger to Wordpress and undergoing a couple
of rebrands before landing on the form it takes today.
I began for a variety of reasons. I
spent the early part of my university years shouting at people for not being
political enough and, in a brief flirtation, knocking around with the SWP.
Blogging seemed like a more efficient way to shout at a wider range of people.
It became apparent that some of the radical SWP views didn’t quite square with
the radical Socialism with a Christian bent I tended toward. As I began
writing, much of the material was drawn from whatever I was studying or reading
infused with a theological twist and a soupcon of my own thoughts. It soon
became less a tool to shout my rightness at people and more a means of
formulating my own views on a given subject and starting a discussion.
As it morphed into more theological
and social comment, I found it helpful in forming my own views or pushing
against things that struck me as sub-optimal in the Christian world, as I
perceived them. It has also proved to be a making our little corner of the UK,
and our unique challenges, a little wider known.
GD: Which blogs do you enjoy
reading and why?
SK: You can hardly be reformed and not
read Tim Challies blog. Funnily enough, I have valued his a la carte feature as
much as anything as it has led me to several blogs I would never have read
otherwise.
David Robertson at The Wee Flea is
always good value. He is so insightful and absolutely excellent on the pressing
social issues of the day.
Then I have valued several smaller
blogs of folk working in similar areas to us. Duncan Forbes at Council EstateChristianity has much to say as does Dave Williams at Faithroots.net. Mez
McConnell is normally churning out something interesting at the 20Schemes blog
too.
GD: What are the strengths and
weaknesses of blogging as a medium for reflection on theological and ministry
matters?
SK: At its best, blogging can bring real
clarity to an issue. More usually, it is helpful in starting a discussion and
process of thinking. Occasionally, it descends into arguments because one
cannot say in everything 1000 words (particular if someone has a particular
something in mind that you chose not to say!)
I have found blogging valuable in
offering a quick response, or a basic outline of thoughts, addressing issues
that arise in the both the local and wider church. It has also been a useful
exercise in offering a position to the church that we would work toward. Due to
a combination of character traits (some good; some less good) I appear to have
a particular penchant for puncturing what I perceive to be blind spots that are
passed around, especially as they relate to how things are on the ground in our
particular context.
I have found blogging exceptionally
helpful in raising the profile of our work in Oldham. It has also given me room
to make clear to those who might support our work to “prove” I am kosher and
share their core convictions, rather than relying on some unspoken shibboleth
or a secret Reformed handshake (no one has shown it to me yet!)
GD: Do you use other forms of
social media, and why/what for?
SK: Being the appropriate age, I joined
Facebook when it first hit universities and never really came off it. I joined
Twitter much later with almost minimal use and am on Linkedin but rarely visit.
Since becoming a pastor and
determining to blog much more frequently, I primarily use all of these as a
means of publicising my blog. However, I have since come to value Twitter the
most. I have built up a small, but supportive, group of people who are either
in similar situations to us, theological training or are inclined to support
work such as ours. More than a few excellent steps forward for our church can
be traced back to Twitter in some respect.
GD: Who has had the greatest
influence on your theological development?
SK: Without doubt, my Dad. I was brought
up in a sound Evangelical family. My Dad’s family were traditionally raised in
the Brethren and, whilst my Dad was at Bible College in Birkenhead, we attended
a Brethren Assembly on a ‘problem estate’. Whatever else one may say about the
Brethren, I have no doubt that my Dad’s evangelistic zeal stemmed from here and
passed down to myself (now a pastor) and my brother (now a missionary). When we
moved down South, we ended up in Grace Baptists circles – partly due to a lack
of Brethren Assemblies and my Dad’s theological shift – and it was here that I
essentially became the convinced Reformed Baptist that I remain to this day.
But that is all background really. My Dad’s consistent love for the Lord, clear
devotion to the word and obvious zeal in evangelism – leading him into a
full-time role as Executive Officer with United Beach Mission for a decade –
has without doubt had the biggest impact on me, hands down.
GD: Which character from
post-New Testament church history would you most like to meet and what would
you say to him/her?
SK: What a great question (almost
impossible to answer)! I am struggling, I’ve already come back to this twice.
It would perhaps be fascinating to go back and ask John Stott for his views on
1966 in the wake of current goings on in the Anglican communion, but that is
nothing more than dissenting rubber-necking really isn’t it?
GD: Tell us how you felt called
to pastoral ministry:
SK: I’m going to point you to a blog
post I wrote a while ago re calling (here).
It is a little relevant to the answer. I essentially did my MA for two reasons:
(1) a vague sense of wanting to ‘do something’ in ministry at some point in
future; (2) as a means of recovering from depression, being well enough to need
something to focus my mind but without being able to go back into work. It fit
the bill perfectly and the setup of my distance-learning course meant I could
fit all this around how I was feeling. I mention this because at that point I
wasn’t specifically looking.
I was quite happy serving in our
church in Manchester and working in recruitment when I was called. I very
definitely was not looking at the time. The outgoing minister was retiring and
my pastor at the time had made contact through the NW Partnership and offered
to cover their preaching for a time. I was duly dispatched to help, not knowing
the church were on the lookout for someone to come in. At some point, my
training and background must have been discussed (alongside potential future
plans) but I honestly don’t remember much about it. Having made myself
available to help fill their pulpit with some frequency, as far as I was
concerned I received a call out of the blue asking if i would consider becoming
their pastor.
My wife and I prayed about it and,
frankly, weren’t sure but couldn’t find any reason to object. I took it to our
elders, fully expecting them to laugh at the idea. I intended to speak to all
of them together but ended up talking to two independently first (one being the
pastor). Both of them was individually very encouraging and said it was a
confirmation of their own thinking at the time – the other two elders agreed
when we got to meet with all of them. I spoke to my parents, who similarly told
me I should go for it. In the face of one church asking, another church telling
me it was a good idea and my Dad also affirming the idea, it seemed hard to say
no really. So, as per my linked post, I felt called when I actually was called,
to be honest.
GD: Where did you train for the
ministry and what did you find especially helpful about your training?
SK: All of my undergrad and postgrad
work has been useful. But, my direct theological training came in the form of
an MA at Kings Evangelical Divinity School.
The course was great for handling
the Bible and considering (from an academic stand point) cultural issues
pertinent to ministry. But my degree was a purely academic one.
GD: What would be your three top
tips for budding preachers?
SK: I’m not sure I’m qualified to
comment! Everything I have learnt from preaching has come from Stuart Olyott’s
writing and watching others.
I’d probably go for: (1) Stick
closely to the text; (2) illustrations are useful but overrated i.e. preach as
though what you’re saying is inherently interesting; (3) be yourself in words
and dress so that the guy apart from the sermon sounds/looks like the one
delivering it.
GD: Describe the situation where
you are now ministering. What are some of the key challenges you face?
SK: Oldham is the most deprived town in
England. The borough is 230,000 people and is in the top 10 of all the polls
you’d rather you weren’t. The town is very segregated with S. Asian Muslims
areas almost entirely separated from working class white estates. Joblessness,
poverty, homelessness, racial tension and asylum seekers are all rife. We are
the only FIEC church in the borough and one of only two gospel partnership
churches.
Our main challenges are severaly
fold: (1) the church has been through something of a journey over the years.
Whilst the eldership is overtly and decidedly Reformed, the congregation is
not. We are working with many from Pentecostal backgrounds and trying to lead
them to Biblical truth; (2) trying to break into the local Pakistani and
Bangladeshi communities (we are making some inroad but it is a drop in the
bucket); (3) We function bilingually due to the large number of Iranian and
Afghan asylum seekers coming into the church and converting (we are now 50%
Farsi-speaking). This has difficult challenges in discipling and teaching new
believers when hardly anything exists in Farsi and what does is typically
rubbish that leads to the similarly bad delivery of English stuff by English
guys like us and the hope it is being adequately translated on the hoof. (4)
Reaching asylum seekers and the jobless means we are not solvent as a church
(we have a regular £1500 deficit), are unlikely to ever be and thus rely on
outside supporters. We have a few but not nearly enough to cover the gap in
finances caused by a combination of people unable to give substantially, my
salary and deep practical needs among the membership. [Info on how to Give in support of the work].
GD: How can Reformed
Evangelicalism reconnect with disadvantaged communities?
SK: By teaching the truth of the gospel.
The false promises of the Prosperity Gospel take hold easily but always fail to
deliver. Methodism has had a stranglehold in Oldham for decades, but a social
gospel is great for those using its services but quickly falters for those
doing the serving (and does little for the souls of those coming). The borough
is littered with failing Methodist churches that have dwindled down to a
handful because, essentially, people got sick of serving just because it’s a
nice thing to do.
It is only the gospel that will
reconnect with the poor. That is what Jesus called good news – not the feeding
of the 5000, but the gospel itself. If we want the promises we offer people to
last, we need to offer them the unfailing promises of Christ in the gospel. If
we want people to stick in the church, we need to give them something more than
‘serving is nice’. We need to serve them and give them the reason for the hope
that is in us.
GD: Is the church you serve part
of a wider group? If so, what are the benefits of belonging to the FIEC/NWP
SK: We are a part of both the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches and
North West Partnership. Both these groups have given us churches we can pass
new converts who have had to move onto. They have also given us a ready made
network of churches with whom we can work in the gospel both locally and more
nationally. They have also provided something of a platform for us to share our
work with those who would otherwise never have heard of it. These links will
come into their own, particularly as we look to plant into unchurched areas of
the borough.
GD: What is the most helpful
theological book that you have read in the last twelve months? It is a must
read because?
SK: There are several that are good
contenders. We were doing a lot of work on polity and membership this last
year. Whilst Dever’s 9 Marks of a Healthy Church was extraordinarily helpful, I
think Thom Rainer’s I am a member was probably the simplest and easiest
that laid out in the clearest possible work what membership should be from a
members point of view. I suspect it would be the book to have the biggest
impact on our members if we all read it together as a church.
GD: In a recent blog post you
argued that it isn’t necessary to wear a suit and tie in the pulpit. Since when
was scruffiness next to godliness?
SK: When in Rome... (and, of course,
according to the Bible!) According to my Facebook comments, the turning point
seems to be somewhere around 55.
GD: What do you do to relax?
SK: My wife would say, ‘not much’. I
genuinely like blogging and find it quite cathartic. But, if that sounds too
close to work, I tend to veg out of TV of some sort. Streaming boxsets are very
helpful.
GD: Care to share your top three
songs or pieces of music?
SK: Just 3? I’m not sure they’re top 3
but they are 3 I have really been enjoying lately:
- Start a War – The
National
- Hail to the Lord’s
Anointed – The Welcome Wagon
- Tom on the Boulevard –
The Innocence Mission
GD: What is the biggest problem
facing evangelicalism today and how should we respond?
SK: Presuming we are saying in the UK,
it is hands down the overwhelming white educated middle class and Southern
nature of British Evangelicalism that is seeing swathes of the poor and needy
heading for Hell because we are unwilling to go to them because we are,
frankly, comfortable where we are in our middle class enclaves. Evangelicalism
will always remain minority unless we revive the missionary spirit and make a
concerted effort to reach those in deprived communities, not just those people
like us with whom we are comfortable, where the schools and cafes are to our
liking.
GD: Agreed. Thanks for dropping by for this conversation, Steve.
